I’m very excited to announce that on July 1st, we will be launching a new equipment program for our residential Fusion Broadband+Phone service. The new equipment is a super-fast ASDL2+ modem/router with four Fast Ethernet ports, high-powered WiFi “N” and an easy-to-use web interface. Built-in Firewall protection for your home network is also included.
Our new Fusion equipment will also streamline our support systems, and allow us to upgrade firmware, manage configuration and roll out new features. For example, in future this capability will be used to offer IPv6 to customers.
The new equipment will be owned by Sonic.net and rented to customers as part of the Fusion home service, for $6.50 per month. This assures you’ll always have working equipment – we can remotely troubleshoot it, and replace it for you at no charge if the equipment fails.
Existing customers are of course welcome to continue to use the equipment that they already own, or you will be able to upgrade (starting next week) to new rental equipment if you find the features compelling.
Yay for IPv6!
Does this mean you have some native IPv6 plan?
Yes, we always have a plan. 😉
I should also point out, we’ve been offering customers IPv6 tunnels since 2002, way before any other service providers. So, we’re not new to v6 by any means. (Notably, we were told by an Apple engineer & customer that the Apple Airport wouldn’t have had v6 support without our service: the engineer took it home to his Sonic.net connection to develop and test 6in4 tunnel support.)
what if we buy the identical device instead of paying rent every month? do we get the same ease of service. obviously if it needed to be replaced we would have to purchase our own again.
Will this mean faster DSL speeds than with Fusion?
I’ve had good experiences with the D-Link 2640B, which is pretty cheap and featurewise comparable (only 802.11g – they have a new version with n but that’s close to irrelevant since the ethernet ports are still 100 Mbit).
Unfortunately none of the integrated modem/routers seem to have GigE ports, nor do they support open firmware, so I still need an unsightly stack of routers and modems 🙁
Will the ZTE ADSL2+ unit be able to pass IPv6 traffic once IPv6 is available on Sonic.net? Or will the new equipment be mandatory?
I prefer to own the equipment since it ends up being cheaper than renting. Will you still be supporting other modems like you do currently? I know I have had to call a few times to get the proper settings for my Motorola modem.
The ZTE equipment does not support IPv6, so in order to get native IPv6, you’d need to switch to the new equipment. Note that you can use IPv6 today, using our 6in4 tunnel service – modem support is not required for this.
As an existing customer, you will be welcome to continue using your own equipment.
Would one be able to receive native IPv6 service with existing hardware? My existing device is used in bridge mode, not as a router.
In our testing, the new Fusion equipment has achieved slightly higher Annex A and Annex M speeds than any other DSL modems we have deployed. It’s not a lot, but it’s marginally better.
As an existing customer, you will be welcome to continue using your own equipment – but no, even an identical device wouldn’t integrate in the same way with our configuration management, support portal, features like IPv6, etc. (Note also that an identical device isn’t available from a retailer like Amazon or BestBuy, it’s a customized platform.)
The details of the IPv6 deployment are not final, but at this time it is anticipated that the new CPE will be required for native IPv6 support. We expect hope to deploy v6 around the fourth quarter of this year.
Will you be offering a modem only cpe device that will work with IPv6 when it rolls out?
@David, no, this will be the only equipment available. Note though that you can put your own router behind it, and there’s an easy “DMZPlus” mode that will forward all ports toward that router so you can manage NAT/PAT on your own device behind ours.
What is the make and model of the equipment? Can I just buy the equipment instead of renting it?
@Stefan, the new equipment for residential Fusion is the Pace 4111N, with custom Sonic.net firmware. If you are a current customer and own equipment, you are of course welcome to continue using that! And, if you are considering becoming a customer and do not want Sonic.net supplied equipment for some reason, do sign up before July 1st!
Why would I want to put my own router behind it? Would that be if I wanted more than 4 hardwired ports? This is an intriguing option…
Will there be an option to purchase it outright? It’s kind of cable company-ish to have to rent a $50 router for $80 a year.
How much stress testing has been done with this new equipment? I ask because the existing ZTE devices have proven unreliable and prone to overheating and crashing under what I consider to be normal (local) load when Wireless is enabled. It seems the burden of combining 3 features, DSL modem, LAN router, and wireless in one device just generated too much load (heat). Hopefully the new devices do not have the same issues.
This is rather cool. I’m too far away for Fusion, but it’s still good to see.
A concern: It looks like this is going to be a mandatory device for new customers. AT&T U-Verse has a similar mandatory device. Unfortunately, it causes big problems with those who want to run more sophisticated networks at home. Check this out:
http://ka9q.net/Uverse/static-ip.html
This rant is mostly about IPv4, but still, it serves a point. Will there be any recourse for those who need IP addressing features not supported by the default “out of the box” setup of this new Fusion device?
I live at the very end of the DSL range 14,000-16,000 feet away. Will ADSL2+ make a difference for me?
Being an I.T. person, will I still be able to log into the new device and review the stats, such as the signal to noise ratio, error stats, etc.? Thanks for your feedback!
@Jim yes, there are connection stats available in the interface. You will simply visit gateway.sonic.net, it’s got a great interface and lots of flexibility and features.
@Bill – at long distances, ADSL2+ is only marginally better for download performance, but upstream can be more than twice as fast. Switching in any case is likely to save you some money, as the phone line service is included.
So how does that affect those of us in Sebastopol who expect to get a fiber link soon?
I like the IPv6 tunnel Sonic.net provides. With DD-WRT, my router connects to the 6in4 tunnel and advertises addresses for devices on my home network. It is functionally the same as having native IPv6.
@JohnM fiber access requires different equipment than copper. We are in the process of specification and testing now. (The current Sebastopol fiber customers are on early-release, interim hardware.)
@Josh you could always put the device in bridge mode. But, in your situation, with a static IP you could also consider DMZPlus mode, where all traffic is forwarded to with 1:1 NAT to a device behind the router.
@Oshyan the new equipment runs quite cool, and has been reliable in our testing. One thing to bear in mind with equipment renting is that if it’s unreliable, we will bear the cost of dealing the the issues, so we also really want to make sure it works consistently.
@Todd no, we will no longer be selling equipment. FYI, it’s more like a $100 router. But you’re right, it has become the industry norm to rent equipment alongside service, and to remain on a level competitive playing field, we must adapt. Both UVerse and Xfinity have equipment rental, at $6/mo and $7/mo respectively.
As a current customer, there’s no obligation to join the program.
@Jennie if you wanted more than four ports, you’d simply place a switch behind the router. They’re inexpensive, and allow you to continue to access all the other systems on the network. The reason you might want to put your own router behind our router could be that you’ve got some special configuration that you prefer, which is offered by your own system. One comment here mentioned a router running DD-WRT – the Sonic.net equipment could be put into “DMZPlus” mode, where it simply forwards all traffic toward a designated system or router behind it, sort of “delegating the brains” of the network to the other device. But, this wouldn’t be typical for most customers, but it’s an advanced feature that is available.
Will the new modems/routers support bridging mode? I like to bind all of my static IP’s to a separate device witch NAT’s the internal network. This was the main factor behind not getting the 40mbps service as it I couldn’t find a modem that did this.
Yes, you can bridge the modem, but this leaves it like Dorothy’s Scarecrow: without a brain. This precludes our ability to troubleshoot and manage it, and features like IPv6.
A middle ground option is DMZPlus, which does 1:1 NAT of all ports, but allows the remote management still to function. There are also some other advanced options, they’re unsupported, but available for your use. See the overview of LAN Subports and Broadband IPs on LAN here: https://forums.sonic.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=674&p=4044&hilit=subports#p4044
I would really encourage you to keep an option for future customers to not have to rent and pay an additional $8 each month! It just raises the cost for customers who don’t need that kind of support.
Even Comcast offers an option to buy or BYO to avoid the rental fee.
Do I understand correctly that the main technical reason you merge the modem and mandate your own router, is to ease the rollout of IPv6?
It makes sense from technical perspective to have this default for non-tech customers, due to tech support nightmare that would otherwise ensue in IPv6 area between many routers and bridges.
However, it would be nice to have bridge-only option for those of us who prefer to not have an extra layer of abstraction to troubleshoot between our custom configured router and the bridge itself.
You know… be friendly to the tech folk.
The perpetual rental fee, however, I don’t get at all. Shouldn’t it only apply to the point until overall increments add up to the equipment cost?
@Alexskey,
The new equipment will facilitate many features, including of course IPv6 – but v6 is just one benefit.
It does offer a large number of configuration options for advanced customers, including a number of advanced modes where we can still manage the device remotely – OR, if you want to you can give it a lobotomy and make it a simple bridge. However, if you choose to do this, support may need you to put it back into a normal mode in order to fully troubleshoot your circuit in future.
Regarding the rental fee, the rental of equipment with service has become quite common, and I believe it’s got some good benefits. The rental and the equipment supports the advance replacement of failed equipment, ongoing upgrades and overall integration of the equipment into the service. This facilitates more features and customer tools, plus ongoing upgrades (which might be software or hardware) when needed.
All of that said, current customers are welcome to continue to use their existing equipment, there’s no need to switch if you don’t want to.
Requiring equipment rental is a bad plan. I have always actively avoided services with this bogus requirement. As an existing customer, I will continue to use my current equipment, though I expect that you will make that obsolete soon.
This is the first negative comment I have ever made about Sonic. I have really enjoyed your service and your excellent customer support, and have convinced most of my family to join you. Please don’t start messing up a good thing.
@Dane: For (soon to be) Sebastopol fiber customers who also have copper-wired fusion phone service, will the adsl phone lines just revert to POTS once I switch from adsl to fiber? Any plans to use the fiber bandwidth for anything other than internet (like phone, TV, etc)? Thanks from an early adopter.
I very much second Alexskey here. It’s impossible to see this as anything except a stealth fee. When I suggest Sonic to people in the future I’ll have to say “well, I pay around $50-$51/month, but you’ll pay substantially more than that”. If I move I’ll suddenly be paying substantially more than I pay today for exactly the same service (except that I’ll have custody of an effectively useless new modem).
This just isn’t consistent with how Sonic has treated customers in the past, and is frankly pretty disturbing as a harbinger even though the immediate financial impact on me is nil. If you require greater revenue then personally I’d much rather see you raise the base monthly rate and work out some other arrangement regarding the modem, than pretend you’re charging people much less than you actually are.
Also, saying that you’re moving to this model as an “industry norm” is perhaps even more disturbing than the specific modem issue. I am a Sonic customer precisely because you do *not* treat people by the industry norms of AT&T, Comcast, etc. If that changes then I’ll be off to the cheapest provider instead of being happy to pay a premium for features such as speaking to customer support who speak English as their native language and treat me like a human being instead of a checklist.
I understand why Sonic is doing this and I don’t think there is any hidden agenda or other anti-customer activity going on here. However, for Sonic’s mix of customers, there are clearly many people for whom this change will be worrisome, even if it doesn’t really change things much in reality. The fee is of concern, but is also relatively small, and Sonic continues to have competitive pricing despite the change.
The real concern here is, I think, some sort of “slippery slope” toward more typical (and negative) ISP policies, hidden charges, and ultimately a “customers last” attitude. I don’t think this is a harbinger of that but I recognize the concern and certainly hope it doesn’t go that way.
Sonic may have to bow to the will of their more savvy customers and offer an owned-equipment option, given that the policy is already in place to allow support of *existing* equipment. Without such allowances, some of the more dedicated customers (and biggest evangelists) may be lost.
> The real concern here is, I think, some sort of “slippery slope†toward more typical (and negative) ISP policies, hidden charges, and ultimately a “customers last†attitude.
Yes, precisely. I was a Speakeasy customer for about 6 years because they had policies and behavior much like Sonic today. Then they decided that growth and being bought out were more important and everything went to crap. Fortunately I still had an alternative, one not available to most US broadband customers, and I will be extremely sad if that changes.
@Larry, Jon and Oshyan,
I certainly hear your concerns, and I can tell you that the topic has been much debated here, with members of my management team taking both positions. Some argue for a flat rate, as MetroPCS offers; they offer for example $40 for unlimited talk, text and web, with all taxes and fees in that base rate. On the other side of the coin is …. everyone else; all other carriers keep these things (and items like equipment) separate from the monthly service fee.
In particular, I would say that the move by ATT to an equipment fee for U~Verse put us on a sloped playing field, but cable has long had this revenue source as well. Without taking our costs of equipment out of the product and making them a line item, I don’t believe we can continue to appear to be a competitively priced offering.
Our Fusion service does not please all prospective customers. Some dislike the inclusion of phone service, and others really disagree with our requirement that a credit or debit card be used for automatic payment. Others will dislike the equipment rental, but I believe that in the long run, this product is going in a direction that current and future customers will very much enjoy, and find to be a strong value.
You are welcome to criticize me on the specifics, and I welcome that, because that input helps guide where we go with our products. I don’t participate in all of the various forums and Twitter only to help customers; I am there to LEARN from them.
Please also take note that as we steer this product toward it’s future form, we are not forcing existing customers to conform to the “new rules”. A new customer who doesn’t like our terms may choose not to sign up, and we’ll react if and when that turns out to be the case. And, we are not changing the game for existing clients.
Finally, with respect to our large number of technical customers who like equipment they can configure, manage and even bridge, this new equipment supports all of that. All of these options are not supported by phone, and we’d refer you to the forums for discussion, but they are all available – you’re not locked down. Here are the options which are available beyond basic as-delivered dynamic NAT – and all of these continue to allow for remote device upgrade and management.
DMZplus
Explanation of DMZplus:
From the modem’s interface: All inbound traffic, except traffic which has been specifically assigned to another computer using the “Allow individual applications” feature, will automatically be directed to this computer. The DMZplus-enabled computer is not firewalled – all unassigned ports are opened for that computer.
LAN Subports
Explanation of LAN Subports:
LAN Subports allow you to essentially bridge any number of ethernet ports on the modem and allow them to grab a WAN IP directly from us as opposed to being assigned a private “192” address. For example, you can set ethernet port one as a LAN Subport, then put a router behind it, and that router will either obtain an IP via DHCP from us, or can be assigned one of a customer’s static IPs. This will allow us to continue to manage the modem remotely while at the same time a customer can use their own equipment behind it without any of the funky stuff that can happen with multiple routers.
Broadband IPs on LAN
Explanation of Broadband IPs on LAN:
The “Use Broadband IPs on LAN” feature allows you to configure a customer’s static WAN IP to be assigned to a computer or device set to DHCP connected via ethernet. This will ONLY work on a static circuit since dynamic circuits don’t often get assigned consecutive IP’s and often are assigned from different subnets completely. When using this feature, the computer will have the WAN IP, but our MAC table will show the MAC address of the modem, not the device itself.
I would make the case that we are still the good guys. You may not agree with all of our product design or business rules, but we do give consideration to the customer ramifications of all of our decisions.
See also:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/06/22/ceo-of-internet-provider-sonic-net-we-delete-user-logs-after-two-weeks-your-internet-provider-should-too/
https://www.eff.org/pages/who-has-your-back
http://blogs.cio.com/internet/16981/so-long-att-why-im-better-small-isp
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/02/gigabit-internet-for-80-the-unlikely-success-of-californias-sonicnet/
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/10/09/the-little-isp-that-stood-up-to-the-government/
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Sonic-net-bucking-the-data-cap-trend-2355518.php
Thanks Dane, I appreciate your detailed and consistent communications here. Just to be clear, for my part I am not particularly bothered by this change, in fact I welcome the possibility of better equipment than the ZTE device that I’ve had historical problems with (now operating in bridged mode, it’s fine). But I do recognize the legitimacy of the concerns being expressed and wanted to add some support for alternative approaches.
In general I’m very happy with Fusion and Sonic.net overall. I’ll be even happier when fiber reaches me in San Francisco, but I’ve not heard any mention of that even being on the way, so I’m not holding my breath. 😉
The amount of negativity is absurd. Savvy users will buy their own modem, those who don’t care will just pay the fee. It’s still cheaper than AT&T.
@Daniel,
To be clear, I think the reason for the adverse reaction is that buying their own modem won’t be an option. Fusion service from 7/1/2012 will be bundled with our equipment. In this way we are similar in policy to ATT with their U~Verse service, as opposed to cable where the modem may be omitted at the customer’s option.
Folks could bridge the device if they don’t like the routering/firewalling, or just put it in a drawer and use something else they like better, but support will ask them to connect it, in a non-bridged mode, from time to time when troubleshooting circuit issues.
@Oshyan, we are making progress on our SF fiber pilot in the Outer Sunset, FYI.
@dane,
“we are making progress on our SF fiber pilot in the Outer Sunset, FYI.”
– How much progress? I’m a current customer in the Inner Sunset and am curious as to when I might be able to avail of the fiber upgrade. 🙂